.Read global forward 97Sep01 oto ew nter ngoto elp EIB/Local Politics: read ump ext

ause top 97Sep01 20:34 from Turk @ ECBBS Sinner, my point is that to put your preferred political system into action would require getting rid of certain groups of people. You do not have a plan to do so which is good. It also means your preferred system will never become reality. Marxism fails when people do not agree to share. Sorry for the late reply, I have been helping my sister and a few other people. For free. :) 97Sep01 20:43 from Turk @ ECBBS Sinner, true Marxism will never exist on any scale of note. That is the reason places that advocate its use devolve into dictatorships or other horrible forms of government. I have no illusion that my relatives lived under Marxism in Slovenia/Yugoslavia or Slovakia/Czechoslovakia. They did not. To have Marxism requires cooperation. There was no cooperation. As a result, the government killed lots of people. That makes enemies. That makes it inevitible that the government will keep the guns and other forms of intimidation for protection. The difference in regimes does not matter to a lot of workers. They do the same job. Under capitalism, there is risk but also opportunity. 97Sep01 21:06 from Turk @ ECBBS Jetrock, capitalism has no position on genocide. Capitalism is a matter of profit. One capitalist may benefit by selling weapons. Another may lose customers because they are dead. Both are capitalists. So are the consumers of their products, mostly. 97Sep01 21:13 from Turk @ ECBBS Sinner, capitalism is not adverse to sharing, community, or family. It is adverse to forced sharing of cost to any of those concerns. 97Sep01 21:16 from Turk @ ECBBS Somebody asked about my politics. Libertarian. Anarchocapitalist or minarchist. Basically, minimal government in a free-market environment. Restrict the power of government and therefor restrict the power of big business to flex its power for regulating its competition to death. 97Sep01 22:56 from Jetrock @ ECBBS Turk: ACtually, there were periods when Czechoslovakia came close to true Marxism. But then the Soviets invaded, since they couldn't tolerate an example of true Marxism to show them up. Just as the U.S. tends to stamp out any country which takes American free-market rhetoric too seriously. Turk, pt. 2: Capitalism has no position on an ything--it's a philosophy, not a political position, and therefore can't be blamed for its adherents. Which is much like those who say 'Oh, you can't blame christianity just because most of its adherents over the past 2000 years have been intolerant scumbags!' CAPITALISM can't have much of an opinion on anything. But I'm not taking issue with the theories of capitalism. I'm taking issue with the ACTIONS of CAPITALISTS. (And communists, by the way.) Just because capitalism doesn't teach (Butcher the Timorese people' does not absolve American involvement and support of the Indonesian invasion of Timor. 97Sep01 23:05 from Jetrock @ ECBBS hm. 'philosophy, not an individual'. Just as millions can be killed in the name of Christianity, but the idea of Christianity is still, supposedly, one of peace and brotherhood, so is capitalism--it's a Lofty Ideal that people kill each other over. Incidentally, so is Communism. Incidentally. both systems stink. I've said it before, but apparently nobody has listened because they still call me a socialist when I say that capitalism stinks as bad as socialism... 97Sep01 23:22 from sinner @ ECBBS Turk: sorry I tried to debate politics. seems you preferred not to read my posts. so, the "debate" on my end died (like princess di). you can't see what i say, for the things in your head get in the way. that illogic (and non-sense) blinds you. I stated what i said...i meant what i said...what i said had meanings...you lost it all in your own interests. it all went bye-bye. nothing more to say, or argue. it's there...post after post...some jokes, with meaning...some meanings...ina joke. sad that so many can't agree that the working person is underpaid...the rich pig overpaid...the middle-class is going going...soon gone. i ain't (and never said) TAKE it all (except in an extremist joke). 97Sep01 23:29 from sinner @ ECBBS thing is, noone ever answered tha question: is there a point that being SO rich becomes obscene? 100 million? 1 billion? 10 billion 100 billion? is a person with 1 trillion dollars TOO rich? 97Sep01 23:32 from sinner @ ECBBS i need an answer. 97Sep02 00:40 from Turk @ ECBBS I read your posts, sinner, concerning both politics and philosophy. Your philosophy is politically unviable. To a lesser degree, so is mine. No, I do not agree the working person is underpaid. Some people are underpaid and others not. A lot of workers are very much overpaid. That does not bother me. People have choices on where they work. Many people take less pay rather than move or do other jobs. Regulation should not interfere in wages. Employees and employers should have a contract and both should abide by the contract. No, no amount of wealth is obscene. What a person does can be obscene. 97Sep02 00:57 from Turk @ ECBBS I don't blame capitalists or communists for invasions. I blame the people taking those actions. It is just as wrong to blame a religion for ills, too, except when that is propelled by the religion and its leaders. 97Sep02 01:52 from JoePhoto @ ECBBS Just to clarify my position; I also am not bothered with what someone is paid; the more the better for them.... BUT, I am bothered when the prices are higher than others can easily pay, (without sacrafices) 97Sep02 12:17 from Freddy @ ECBBS Heh...there is no point where you can have too much money. The thing is people don't think like you either. One of the most popular people in the country is making so much money each year that she doesn't need to work more then a year ever. That's Opra. She's making over 150 million a year. She's not sitting on her ass waiting for that paycheck either. She's branchig out, she know's that paycheck aint going to keep coming in, and eventually she'll be out of a job. SHhe's started her book club, and keeps publishing her own books. She looking towards her retirement here. You never know when she wont get another paycheck. Heh. Sinner, the thing about it is, no one cares. She doesn't hire people to work for her at $1/hour, she hires people at good wages. She doesn't take all her money and put it in her mattress where the bank can't use it to make a home loan to you or an auto loan to JoePhoto. She has it in banks and investments into companies like yours or mine. She pays millions of dollars every year in taxes too. What about that? You'll never pay a millino dollars in taxes, and she pay tens of millions of dollars in taxes every year. Seems she's paying entire lifetimes of hundreds of peoples taxes every year. Is that fair? Does she use the government agencies that are out there because of the taxes more then you or I? Also, doomsayers have been around since the dawn of time. There is going to be no middle class. What does that mean? Nothing. First of all there is no conspiracy to eliminate the middle class. Second of all the same thing has been said about the penny of over 20 years. Seems it's still around, and we actually get interest and pay taxes to the .001 or .0001 of a cent. So, maybe we need more smaller coins so that we don't get cheated out of our half cents, eh? 97Sep02 14:12 from Jetrock @ ECBBS JoePhoto: You're lying. You've spent an immense amount of time griping about how much "overpaid union employees" get paid. Turk: You said "I don't blame capitalists or communists for invasions, you blame the people taking those actions." What happens when the people taking those actions are capitalists or communists? I can see not blaming CAPITALISM or COMMUNISM, but if A PERSON who identifies as either capitalist or communist engages in genocide, can we not blame THE PERSON? And if they claim that their actions were in the name of their ideology, does not that ideology share some blame for the inspiration of their actions? Or are ideologies such as capitalism and communism so sacred that their motives and means cannot even be questioned or challenged? And people may have choices about where they work, but they seldom have choices about WHETHER OR NOT they work. 97Sep02 18:40 from JoePhoto @ ECBBS Jet, I am fully aware that my diatribe against unions appears to be rooted in jealousy; but I assure you it is NOT. I am very happy for any particular person that has such a job.... even in the discusions I had last month with the 8 grade dropout that was bragging about his air conditioned, stereo surrounded job at $44/hr.... I felt not a tinge of "jealousy"... nor the same thing the next day when I was talking with a man when his grandson came up with his brand new Pick-Up Truck... he was bragging that he was banking exactely half of his paycheck; but yet with the other half, he was able to get a custom paint job, raise the suspension, get custom wheels/tires... each one with only ONE paycheck...!!! BUT, It is simply my observation that EVERYTHING union controlled has risen in price FASTER than the COL index... but yet everything non-union has remained stable or gone DOWN in price. Further, those things that have risen the most are essentials that poor/retired/unemployed must still buy. I just can't understand why that is so difficult to see !!! 97Sep02 19:21 from Jetrock @ ECBBS Joe: I didn't say you were jealous, I said you spend a lot of time griping about people who, in your opinion, make "too much money". Don't try to deny it. And no industries are union-controlled: the union doesn't run the industry, the owners of the companies do. 97Sep02 23:14 from Turk @ ECBBS Jetrock, you blame the person. If they blame an ideology it is usually to shift the blame. An ideology can't force any action. Can an ideology promote an action? Sure. Depending on the action, it can be held responsible to a minimal degree. I blame lots of leaders, followers and their stupid beliefs for many actions. There are capitalists who believe in force, just as there are communists who believe in force. 97Sep02 23:24 from Turk @ ECBBS People have the choice not to work. All choices are not easy or without consequence. I support the right to commit suicide. I also think it is stupid in most instances. People make stupid economic choices all the time. We had a rental house we owned with a partner. The partner had cancer and wanted out. We wanted out, too. The people renting the house just got an insurance settlement. We offered to sell them the house. Their payments would have been below the rent payments by two hundred dollars. Since we wanted to sell quickly they would have had instant equity, too. They blew the money on a van. We sold to an investor who had higher costs and raised the rent. They could not afford the increase and were evicted. If they were smart, or had listened, they could have bought the house and lowered their costs by a significant amount. Or they could have immediately resold the house for a profit. I have seen lots of poor people remain poor by their own choices. You can't force somebody to make a good decision. Maybe, hopefully, they made the right decision for themselves. They certainly made an informed decision. 97Sep03 00:30 from Freddy @ ECBBS I like Turk. He be smart. 97Sep03 12:04 from Mark Holtz @ ECBBS JoePhoto: You forgot to mention a couple of other factors that allowed Japanese cars to gain the foothold that they have. First off, there was the gas crisis of ~1974 and ~1979. All of a sudden, the cheap gas became expensive gas, and the gas guzzling American vehicles were costing major money to operate. The Japanese cars were fuel efficient, in fact advertising by Datsun (now Nissan) pushed this fact by having ads by pouring one gallon of gasoline into the tank, and then touting how many miles you can drive on that one gallon. Secondly, there is the quality issue. In the 1970 s and 1980s, the cars that Detroit produced were not of top-notch quality..... the dollar was the bottom line. The Hondas, on the other hand, were of excellent quality, and thus less prone to major repairs. 97Sep03 12:45 from Irezumi @ ECBBS JoePhoto: Another reason Japanese cars got a foothold is because high-level auto executive refused to adapt to the times. They did but only after having well-made, fuel-efficient cars rammed in their faces. I think highly of Japanese autoworkers, damn fine, but for my money American autoworkers are half a level better. American car manufacturers have always had the potential to make better cars than the Japanese. We haven't because the auto executives wouldn't provide high grade materials and appropriate technology to let the American workers' skill fulfill their potential. 97Sep03 13:10 from JoePhoto @ ECBBS You are both absolutely correct; and I mentioned there were other factors. But it is still true that they were very much cheaper; Japanese could be bought for at least $2000 below the equivalent American cars, (size wise, that would even have to be the Vega's, Pinto's, etc.)... but that price advantage was even after traffif's so the differential could have been much worse. But I will not deny that fuel economy and quality was not also another reason. 97Sep03 14:17 from Freddy @ ECBBS Fuel economy? Bah! Biggest hoax there is. Fuel efficient engines are created each year by college students or professors and are grabbed by the gov because the unions don't want it to go public. I know a professor of mine who was involved on an engine back in the early 60's. Their engine had got over 90 mpg. That's when cars where running about 5-10 mpg. Don't tell me that fuel efficienct is a concern here. Just another point on this topic. You know how much tax we pay on fuel? Over half of it. That's sick. 97Sep03 15:16 from Jetrock @ ECBBS Turk: I'm not sure where your anecdote about your dumb tenants fits into all this discussion. As to the whole ideology thing: Once again, I'm not trying to hold ideologies responsible for specific actions, I consider individuals (who are often ideologues) responsible for their actions. Thing is, when I say something like, "Capitalists often do xxx", people instantly respond, "Oh, you can't blame capitalism for xxx", when I DIDN'T blame capitalism for xxx, I blamed CAPITALISTS. CAPITALISM = a social philosophy CAPITALIST = one who believes in the social philosophy of capitalism Now, I can't blame capitalism for diddly. But I can sure as hell hold a capitalism accountable for his actions, or hold a capitalist organization accountable for that organization's actions. In the example above, I said, in essence, "The Indonesian government are responsible for killing a million or so people in Indonesia and East Timor, and the U.S. are responsible for aiding and abetting that crime." Specific accusations against specific individuals. The response I got was, "Oh, you can't blame capitalism for killing those people!" And my response is, I DIDN'T! I didn't blame CAPITALISM, I blamed THE INDONESIAN GOVERNMENT and THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT, which happen to be capitalist at least in name, and cite that the reason they butchered all these folks was IN THE NAME OF THE CAPITALIST IDEOLOGY: they did it because these people were, in their view, Communists, or in danger of possibly becoming Communists someday. This is why I consider political ideologies like capitalism and communism to be hazardous and harmful: they become cheap justifications for mass slaughter. Once again, I'm holding the ideologue responsible, not the ideology. It's like blaming the murderer for killing, not the murder weapon--but sometimes when attempting to hold a murderer responsible for their crimes it's a good idea to examine the murder weapon... 97Sep03 19:47 from Mark Holtz @ ECBBS Uh, Freddy, in order to achieve those High MPGs, those college students design the cars, then gun the engines to get a high speed, then leave the engine at idle while the car slows down, then gas it again. 97Sep03 21:58 from Jetrock @ ECBBS As to the whole "200 mpg cars" theories, well, there are plenty of designs being hidden away, not by union representatives, but by the corporate overlords themselves--they've got the money and clout to get innovations quickly forgotten about. And, um, the first wave of Japanese imports did get better mileage than the existing crop of Japanese cars. That, plus the fact that American auto makers didn't want to bother with offering new designs, caused the domestic auto market to suffer. And, Joe, if you compare wages and benefits between American and Japanese auto workers, you'll find they're both high: Americans because their unions fight for their rights, in Japan because Japanese corporations tend to be very paternalistic about their workers: true, it's a very conformist society, but a Japanese company takes care of its employees... 97Sep04 00:31 from Turk @ ECBBS Jetrock, my anecdote fits in perfectly. Capitalism is about choice. That is maximum freedom. Freedom to fail or succeed. 97Sep04 00:36 from Turk @ ECBBS I will not argue your point on Indonesia as I lack any concrete knowledge of the situation. My only point would be that theft is not a tenet of capitalism. Killing to take resources is theft. Governments tend to like "stable" friends. The enemy of an enemy is also considered a friend. That is true of most governments and has little to do with economic systems like capitalism. We like Iraq strong enough to check the power of Iran. We like the opposite, too. We really do not like either side. Do we like regimes we can do business with at the same time? Sure. The U.S.S.R. would have been friendly with Cuba if it had been democratic, capitalist, and unfriendly to the U.S.A. It is not an ideology thing. 97Sep04 01:34 from Jetrock @ ECBBS Turk: Um, LIFE is about freedom to fail or succeed. Capitalism CAN be about freedom but it isn't integral to it, and it tends to work quite well under onditions of minimal freedom (for most). My basic premise is that you can have freedom without capitalism, and you can have capitalism without freedom. They're not inseparable--and the idea that 'capitalism is freedom' is as ludicrous as 'socialism is freedom'. And I didn't say theft was a tenet of capitalism of freedom either. You're focusing the discussion back on your precious ideology, Turk. I don't gie a RAT'S ASS about your ideology. The United States said 'good job, more of the same' to a country that butchered half a million of its own people and a quarter million Timorese, and happily sold them arms and provided political support so they could continue these actions with maximum gusto. The point is whether these actions are inherent to capitalist states is a moot point, and it's pretty obvious that they're not. The POINT IS that WE ARE ACCESSORIES TO MASS MURDER because of our happy support of ruthless bastards like Suharto, Saddam Hussein (until we changed our minds about him), Manuel Noriega (until we changed our minds about him), Shah Reza Pahlavi, etcetera. And despite the truly grotesque amount of blood on our hands, and on the hands of our allies, when an enemy of Our Way of Life commits a similar act, we're the first to scream about how horrible the Bad Guys are, and how we'd never do anything like that (even though we have). Just because it's good business to be a sadistic bastard doesn't make it okay to be a sadistic bastard, Turk. Anyone who tells you different is trying to justify the fact that they're evil scum... 97Sep04 09:32 from Curly Surmudgeon @ ECBBS Created an "Motor Vehicle" room for the MPG thread. 97Sep04 14:29 from Turk @ ECBBS I am glad you agree that it is not inherent to capitalism or most other ideologies. That is my point. Geopolitical reality is your nation will be dealing with many undesirable people and nations. On a more individual level it is part of freedom of association. A ruthless bastard has its uses. Is the situation of longstanding turmoil in Afghanistan better than having one sadistic leader? If Saddam dies, who replaces him? Will that cause Iran to be more powerful? Our government generally views brutality as better than war. And short wars as better than long wars. Less people dead but is that better? Are you suggesting we should overthrow brutal regimes? I am a non-interventionist for the most part. You can witness the tortured policies by reviewing the break-up of Yugoslavia. Our government wanted the nation to remain together which meant Slovenia, Croatia, et cetera remaining oppressed financially to Serbia. Why? Because Serbia is insolvent and is a powder keg that can blow spreading through Hungary, Romania, Albania, Greece, and within Yugoslavia. Even Turkey could get sucked in. They happily backed Milesovic over Kucan and Tudjman [I think that's misspelled]. 97Sep04 15:12 from Turk @ ECBBS Capitalism does better with freedom. Capitalism is an economic philosophy whereas my social philosophy is libertarianism. The two go together quite well. Capitalism, over the long term, leads to more social freedom. Eventually, China, for example, will open up. 97Sep04 17:23 from Jetrock @ ECBBS Turk: Um, the United States already overthrows regimes left & right, and almost universally they overthrow democratically elected leaders and REPLACE them with brutal regimes. The U.S. can't seem to tolerate the existence of a Third World leader that got into place by a fair election: they consider generals who sieze power by killing their opponents to be a much more "democratic" method of obtaining leaders for third-world countries. I'm not suggesting that we overthrow brutal regimes, I'm suggesting that we stop installing and supporting and ENCOURAGING them, and discouraging less severe forms of government. A ruthless bastard does have his uses--but usually those uses are beneficial to the mandarins of power, and incredibly detrimental to the general public. Capitalism doesn't give a flying damn about freedom. Nazi Germany, for example, was a wonderfully "capitalist" state, backed by many corporations both in the United States and in Europe. Capitalism, over the long term, leads to more concentration of power in fewer hands, which is inimical to social freedom for the majority of the population. There's more "social freedom" for the minority of privileged classes, but far less for the bulk of the population. Capitalism and personal freedom aren't necessarily mutually exclusive, but the most powerful capitalists would like it that way--while adamantly ensuring us that they're inseparable. "Freedom" means more than being able to choose between McDonald's and Burger King. And our government generally views brutality as better than liberty. 97Sep04 22:26 from Turk @ ECBBS Our overthrowing regimes has everything to do about geopolitics and only sometimes something to do with capitalism. Even then, as in Yugoslavia, stability is the goal. I am against that activity, though, by anyone or any government. Josip Broz Tito was a ruthless sadistic SOB. By our government's view, his iron grip kept Yugoslavia at peace. It took a few years to unravel after his death. Now, by how you measure things, was his strategic killing better than the genocide that came after his death? Considering history, do you think Yugoslavia could have peacefully separated? I hate Tito. I can see why our government wanted Yugoslavia together. Some of the same problems exist in Iraq. In a lot of places the alternative to a dictator is a prolonged bloodbath. That is detrimental to the general public. There really is no clean way to deal with these situations. Ignoring them does not make them go away. Replacing them rarely works for long. And like Tito, everybody only lives so long. 97Sep04 22:51 from Turk @ ECBBS And, you are correct, capitalism does not care about freedom. Capitalists, for the most part, do care. By the WAY, you are starting to TYPE like somebody ELSE, Jetrock. :) 97Sep05 01:25 from Jetrock @ ECBBS Irezumi: Not necessarily. More than once, leaders considered 'too far to the left' have turned to the United Stats for aid, including Nicaragua under the Sandinistas, and been turned down because their regimes weren't brutal enough. Many times, American aid has been tied to 'changes in internal policy' such as destruction of social programs, increased police powers, disenfranchisement of the poor, and fewer limitations on the military (IMF funding for Mexico being tied to the defeat of the Chiapas revolution and the repeal of the clause of the Mexican constitution that allows peasants to work on private but undeveloped land, for example). You can kiss ass all you want, but you still have to play Washington's game before they'll let you remain in power. 97Sep05 01:30 from Jetrock @ ECBBS Turk: Re Tito: If Tito had not been in power, maintaining a 'hold' on the situation, perhaps they could have been resolved decades ago instead of coming to a head in the resolution of a power vacuum. And you're giving a distinctly worst-case scenario here: The United States makes a SPECIFIC AND DELIBERATE EFFORT to cultivate totalitarian dictators who will crush unions, slash social-welfare budgets, and reduce their people to poverty in order to facilitate the one goal of American foreign policy: to ensure unimpeded access by American corporations to the resources and labor pool of the Third World. Corporations can take advantage of cheap Third World labor because of our foreign policy's deliberate efforts to KEEP them cheap: by impoverishing the workin class of Third Word naons and crushing their efforts to unionize. In this situation, capitlism is aided and abetted by authoritarian dictators--any hint of 'freedom' or 'democracy' which applied to the citizens of these Third World nations would be very harmful to the efforts of 'capitalism' and 'capitalists': so it is in the interests of the capitalists who run these corporations to limit freedom in the Third World to apply only to the freedom to exploit cheap labor and divert other countries' resources to our own at bargain-basement prices. 97Sep05 08:26 from Irezumi @ ECBBS Jetrock: That's my point: There are certain political views Washington wants to hear and if leaders, or aspiring leaders, express those views then Washington is much more apt to listen and support the leader. I'm not sure if it's tied directly into whether a goverment is sufficiently brutal or disenfranchises one part of a countr's population. In some ways I think it's much more basic. If a leader is "America friendly" yet brutalizes his country, disenfranchises parts of the society, gives away chunks of the economy to American owned or controlled companies, then Washington tends to view that as better than a leader who exhibits any kind of independant thinking, even if that thinking is 80% of what Washington considers "safe." 97Sep05 19:03 from Glen A. Wilson @ ECBBS The United States has been BY FAR the most ridiculously over-zealous imperialistic state of the past 150 years. I think it's high time we got our noses out of everyone's business and sit back and watch in amazement as the world gets along WITHOUT U.S. GOVERNMENT INTERFERENCE! I'm not saying abolish trade, but I'd lay real money that the REAL U.S. gov't (not the figureheads you see on TV) runs 10-20 other governments in the world. 97Sep05 19:23 from Irezumi @ ECBBS Oh yeah, at least. The U.S. is great at pressuring countries into being and staying our allies. 97Sep05 21:33 from sinner @ ECBBS i like Glen. 97Sep06 11:42 from Jetrock @ ECBBS Thing is, an end to U.S. interference is also an end to U.S. domination. We remain the richest country in the world due to our massive exploitation of others. I wonder what the reaction of folks would be if U.S. dirty tricks were to end and we suddenly discover that we have to learn to share... 97Sep06 16:15 from Irezumi @ ECBBS Total freak out! 97Sep09 8:51 am webpage owner from Ghek the Kaldane @ Bantoom _ Sac-CA I have often thought that our gouvernment was too kind..... 97Sep09 23:15 from Turk @ ECBBS If it weren't for Tito then Germany would have had the power, probably, to take Yugoslavia during WW2. Tito had a talent for getting people that hated each other to work together. In war, that's an asset. Yugoslavia, well, the region, has a long long history of feuding and repression. The Serbs and Croats take turns. Basically, without Tito the civil war would have happened earlier. And Yugoslavia isn't really all that different from many places. Many nations have borders which do not follow ethnic lines. And, if they did, other problems would arise. Regarding Mexico, we should not have bailed them out. It was a business deal. 97Sep09 23:39 from sinner @ ECBBS actually, we SHOULD get REAL friendly with mexico. first, because we owe them. second, because they could be a real threat. screwing around on the other side of the planet when we got problems in the americas is foolish and ill-advised. people don't realize that we (us white boys) are a disappearing commodity. i say GOOD! but, the hell will be less if we deal with our poorest and most populous neighbor with dignity. it won't happen, though. Jose' is our (white boys) yard boy or pool man. it'll change...very soon. and i think it's gonna be a hoot. THE MAN has a bunch of big ol' bombs all over this country and would rather send us "all up to heaven" then give up this country, though. hey, the Bible will be fulfilled...the end time. the white, perfect, americans will fly up and embrace the white, perfect Jesus...only thing is Jesus will be a mexican name. :-P 97Sep09 23:47 from sinner @ ECBBS it's all gonna be funny to watch go down. 97Sep10 10:00 from sinner @ ECBBS we just have lots of happy slaves. 97Sep10 19:21 from sinner @ ECBBS damn straight. 97Sep11 00:17 from Turk @ ECBBS That is happening but it falls under the jobs going to Mexico hype. Wages are not going to rise there until they have a larger job base. 97Sep11 00:40 from sinner @ ECBBS well, mexico has hella lotta people...service industries (like sweeping up crap) must be a booming job market. thing is, mexico poor...america RICH...poor starving millions there...BIG hambugers here...OOK OKK! figure it out. run for the border after the year 2000 has a whole new meaning. oto ew nter ngoto elp Rykor Corral> read ump ext

ause top 97Sep01 3:34 pm 007 was elsewhere from Ghek the Kaldane ....just a reminder to fasten your safety belts...... ...some of our favorite people appearently forgot..... ....I have had a nice picture of Charles and Diana in the Temple of Beauty, my favorite way to remember the good times... 97Sep02 7:23 pm Jesus saves.. from lady hawk It was a hit...the queen arranged it all..... 97Sep03 11:57 pm from Slicer lady hawk: rumor only... actually, it's been a really messed up ordeal all around... i think there is no way charles will become king. it'll be harry... 97Sep04 6:14 pm Pass Interference from Tomcat Leader I think it will be William. Hands down. 97Sep06 2:46 am High Rollin from Ghek the Kaldane ....it will be a male....heh..... 97Sep09 10:10 am webpage owner from Ghek the Kaldane Bantoom had a little problem yesterday afternoon......seems ok now..... oto ew nter ngoto elp Relationships `97+> read ump ext

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ause top 97Sep01 3:43 pm 007 was elsewhere from Ghek the Kaldane ...working today.....(also the birthday of a deceased best friend).... oto ew nter ngoto elp Steamroom> read ump ext

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ause top 97Sep09 9:52 am webpage owner from Ghek the Kaldane overkill squared 97Sep09 12:20 pm Pass Interference from Tomcat Leader Roadkill Round.... 97Sep09 2:48 pm Newsflash! from.... from Nightwind ....Table Pizza oto ew nter ngoto elp Purgatory is...> read ump ext

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ause top 97Sep01 3:49 pm 007 was elsewhere from Ghek the Kaldane .....hummm......I wonder if Charles and Di "were" in it..... 97Sep02 7:41 am Pass Interference from Tomcat Leader A new game of 007 is out for N64 now. "Goldeneye" is out in game format. Check it out. 97Sep09 8:51 am webpage owner from Ghek the Kaldane Caint....no N64... oto ew nter ngoto elp Sports Haven> read ump ext

ause top 97Sep01 10:41 am In Memorium Diana from Tomcat Leader in The Finish Line> Jerk gordon wins the Winston Million as he took the Mountain Dew Southern 500. Dale Earnhardt was taken to the hospital after getting sent into the wall on lap 1 for a mild concussion. He will race Saturday at RiGordon moved back into first for the points lead over Mark Martin. 97Sep02 7:31 am Purple Pagaent from Petrouchka in The Finish Line> C'mon, now, Tom, you're showing bias. Cincinnati isn't THAT good. And I think you've OVERRATED San Diego (MY TEAM) and underrated Denver. Overrated Minnesota and New Orleans, and underrated Tennessee and Tampa Bay... but I agree with you on Buffalo, Dallas, San Francisco, Pittsburgh, Jacksonville, Seattle, Baltimore, St. Louis, Philadelphia, Detroit, Atlanta, Washington, and Miami. As for: Oakland: Better than you think. Both the team and the QB. Chicago: Not THAT bad. They played Green Bay tough. New England: Luck? No, they have talent, and can win again. Kansas City: Has a nobody team. Don't over-rate Grbac, he ain't special. But hey, we'll see... 97Sep02 7:34 am Purple Pagaent from Petrouchka in The Finish Line> You've underrated Indianapolis, too. Remember last year, when they made the playoffs? Come week 17, their injury list was 4 miles long. They basically made the playoffs on SECOND TEAM PLAYERS. 97Sep02 7:55 am Pass Interference from Tomcat Leader in The Finish Line> That maybe true, but look at the schedules. Indy has something to prove about their defense. As for Cincy, I DID say that GB would beat them. As for SD, they just may surprise you, don't write them off just yet. Notice I said, in KC's case, the keyword was IF. SF is REALLY screwed without Rice. The Vikings are hungry this year and may go all the way to the playoffs, but no further. Pats have to get used to a new head coach, that takes time as they have to get the new system down. No, my predictions are legit. This will be a season of surprises and upsets. So far, with the exception of NO, all of my picks won. Cincy, NY Jets, Minnesota, and the Rams ALL won. 4 for5, not bad. 97Sep02 8:02 am Pass Interference from Tomcat Leader in The Finish Line> now for racing news. Dale Earnhardt was released from the hospital yesterday after a series of tests all proved negative, but his doctor did not clear him to drive in Saturday's race at Richmond. The doctor wasconcerned with carbon monoxide fumes getting into the car. Sunday, after hard contact with the wall, it took two laps to find pit row. Earnhardt complained of dizziness, was pale and was seeing double and had trouble breathing. It is not known if a replacement driver will be found to drive the Goodwrench Monte Carlo for Saturday's race.Richard Childress, the team's owner was quoted as saying "My main concern is the condition of Dale Earnhardt at this time.". 97Sep03 6:50 am Pass Interference from Tomcat Leader More tests were perfomed on Dale Earhardt yesterday to find the cause f his health problem that sent him into the wall and caused him to be sent tothe hospital. He still has not been cleared to drive, yet the seven time Winston Cup champion claimed he felt fine and was ready to drive. All tests madMonday were negative and the tests done onTuesday were not complete. 97Sep03 11:33 am Golden Jubilee from Petrouchka Okay, hubba bubba, let's see how we do this week... FAVORITE SPREAD UNDERDOG MY PICK ----------------------------------------------------------------------- at Pittsburgh 6 Washington Washington San Francisco 4.5 St. Louis San Francisco at Miami 6.5 Tennessee Tennessee Carolina 3.5 at Atlanta Carolina Minnesota 1 at Chicago Chicago New England 4.5 at Indianapolis New England at Detroit 4.5 Tampa Bay Tampa Bay Cincinnati 1.5 at Baltimore Cincinnati at New York Jets 4.5 Buffalo New York Jets at New Orleans N/L San Diego San Diego Green Bay 7.5 at Philadelphia Green Bay Denver 5.5 at Seattle Denver at Jacksonville N/L New York Giants New York Giants Dallas 9.5 at Arizona Dallas at Oakland 5 Kansas City Oakland UPSET OF THE WEEK: Washington over Pittsburgh. Hey, if the Skins can be the first team in the NFL to win in Charlotte, they should beat a Steelers squad that was humiliated by the Cowboys last week. GAME OF THE WEEK: Tennessee at Miami. The Dolphins are favored by WAY too much... this will be a good game. 97Sep04 7:57 am Pass Interference from Tomcat Leader Not bad, not bad at al. My upset of the week is Philly over Green Bay. Injuries are already plaguing the Pack. Philly could surprise them with a good running game up the middle. Nascar officials are looking into the Dale Earnhardt mystery, hoping to decide whether to clear him for qualifying on Friday for the race at Richmond Saturday night. So far, all tests have come up negative on the "Intimidator". a decision will come later today. 97Sep09 9:59 am webpage owner from Ghek the Kaldane ...I like this new newsgroup... 97Sep09 12:21 pm Pass Interference from Tomcat Leader Thanks. I aim to please. 97Sep10 7:27 am Golden Jubilee from Petrouchka Nice call on Philadelphia, Tomcat. Well, here's another one from me: Teams I'm VERY impressed with so far: Minnesota Jacksonville Teams I'm VERY disappointed with so far: Seattle Carolina Oakland 97Sep10 7:37 am Golden Jubilee from Petrouchka Here's my results from last week Game: Result: Was I right? ------------------------------------------------------------------ Wash @ Pitts. Pitts 14, Wash 13 No SF @ Stl SF 15, StL 12 Yes Tenn @ Miami Miami 16, Tenn 13 (OT) No Car @ Atl Car 9, Atl 6 Yes Minn @ Chi Minn 27, Chi 24 No NE @ Ind NE 31, Ind 6 Yes TB @ Det TB 24, Det 17 Yes Cin @ Balt Balt 23, Cin 10 No Buf @ NYJ Buf 28, NYJ 22 No SD @ NO SD 20, NO 6 Yes GB @ Phi Phil 10, GB 9 No Den @ Sea Den 35, Sea 14 Yes NYG @ Jax Jax 40, NYG 13 No Dal @ Ari Ari 25, Dal 22 (OT) No KC @ Oak KC 28, Oak 27 No 6 right, 9 wrong. Eeek. I got destroyed on severl upsets: Philadelphia beating Green Bay, Arizona beating Dallas, Kansas City beating Oakland, specifically. 6-9... okay... here comes this Sunday's picks, complete with commentary.. 97Sep10 8:04 am Golden Jubilee from Petrouchka 1. New Orleans Saints at San Francisco 49ers Last week, the weak NFC West combined for 18 Turnovers, but only 2 touchdowns. that's FIVE teams. These TWO combined for 10 of those turnovers. Messy game, but New Orleans is the worst team in the NFL. THE PICK: San Francisco 2. Oakland Raiders at Atlanta Falcons Atlanta hasn't shown much so far. Then again, neither has Oakland. But at least the Raiders have talent and potential. THE PICK: Oakland 3. Arizona Cardinals at Washington Redskins Arizona's coming off a big upset, the 'Skins, a heartbreaking loss. Arizona's better than people think, but playing at RFK should give the Redskins the advantage. Question: Can the 'Skins win with Gus Ferrotte as their QB? This should be a good game. THE PICK: Washington (maybe in overtime) 4. Baltimore Ravens at New York Giants Baltimore played tough last year, losing 13 games, but by a combined 106 points. And their only loss this year was by 1 point. And the Giants are still licking their Jaguar inflicted wounds from last week. THE PICK: Baltimore 5. Buffalo Bills at Kansas City Chiefs Whereas the Chiefs are hovering statically, neither getting better nor worse, the Bills are plummeting fast. THE PICK: Kansas City 6. Detroit Lions at Chicago Bears This is also a tough pick. A long rivalry between these teams means a goo game. You can through all your stats out the window. Both suffered losses versus tough divisional rivals last week, but I just can't see the Bears going 0-3. Still, Detroit has the best RB in football: Barry Sanders. THE PICK: Detroit 7. Miami Dolphins at Green Bay Packers At Lambeau Field? Versus an angry Packers team that gave away a game to the Eagles last week? If I were Miami, I wouldn't even get off the bus. The Packers are going to rout the Dolphins, and there's nothing anyone can do about it. THE PICK: Green Bay (final score? Say, 42-7) 8. Tampa Bay Buccaneers at Minnesota Vikings Both are 2-0. Atop the NFC Central, ahead of Green Bay, even. And it looks like the NFC Central will be sending THREE teams to the playoffs this season. Both are real good, and surprising many people. But I'm going with my personal favorite. No science here, just sentimentality. THE PICK: Tampa Bay Buccaneers 9. Carolina Panthers at San Diego Chargers At the beginning of the season, I had this written off as a Carolina win. Now, it's not so certain. Not because the Chargers look so good, but because Carolina looks SO BAD compared with last year. Still, the Chargers mustered only a pathetic performance versus the Saints, so there isn't much hope. This game will merely be closer than all had anticipated. THE PICK: Carolina 10. St. Louis Rams at Denver Broncos This is one of the many "mediocre team versus great team" matchups this week. The Rams are good. Look for them in the playoffs before 1 in the years turns to 2. But not this year. THE PICK: Denver 11. Seattle Seahawks at Indianapolis Colts Both are underachieving, both are 0-2, and both are coming off thrashings by better teams (Seattle lost to Denver, Indy to New England). Indianapolis has been outscored 47-16 in two games, and Seattle, 76-17. It's time for one of these teams to show that they've got something. ANYTHING. THE PICK: Seattle 12. New York Jets at New England Patriots Another mediocre versus great matchup. The Jets are vastly improved from last years' 1-15 sadsack. But they're playing the defending AFC champs, who haven't lost a step. THE PICK: New England Monday Night Football 13. Philadelphia Eagles at Dallas Cowboys Suddenly, this is a great matchup. The Eagles are coming off a huge upset over Green Bay, and have momentum. But Dallas is coming off a huge upset at Arizona, and the Cowboys were on the wrong side of it. But Dallas is pissed, and at home, and, although weaker than past years, still more talented than the Eagles. Later on in the season, at Philadelphia, this game will be REALLY good. THE PICK: Dallas (because they always do well on Monday nights) Teams with the week off: The AFC Central (except Baltimore) - Pittsburgh Steelers (1-1) - Cincinnati Bengals (1-1) - Tennessee Oilers (1-1) - Jacksonville Jaguars (2-0) 97Sep10 8:08 am Golden Jubilee from Petrouchka GAME OF THE WEEK: Tampa Bay at Minnesota Who will win? Tampa Bay Why? The D.U.E. theory. The Bucs are LONG over-DUE for a good season... UPSET OF THE WEEK: There shouldn't be any, there have been plenty the last 2 weeks, but I'll go with my hometown team, San Diego, over Carolina. Even though I have Carolina picked in the last message, this is the upset I would LIKE to see happen. oto ew nter ngoto elp Band Names> read ump ext

ause top 97Sep09 10:02 am webpage owner from Ghek the Kaldane Strident Rukus Konch Kream Raw Bufolo Chips oto ew nter ngoto elp Happiness is...> read ump ext

ause top 97Sep01 3:44 pm 007 was elsewhere from Ghek the Kaldane .....the Best of RAWTV 97Sep02 7:38 am Pass Interference from Tomcat Leader A Bengals opening day win!... 97Sep02 7:25 pm Jesus saves.. from lady hawk ....Mel Gibson 97Sep06 2:55 am High Rollin from Ghek the Kaldane .....new memory...(hope it fixes the problem) 97Sep06 7:22 am Pass Interference from Tomcat Leader So what happened to your old memory? Bwahahahahaha! You know what happens in our young age. ;> 97Sep06 7:23 am Pass Interference from Tomcat Leader Owning the 25th Anniversary Star Trek leterbox set and Special Edition Sta Wars Trilogy. 97Sep06 9:45 pm wheredidthetimego from The Eternal Yam a job at the Pleasure Faire...I don't want to drive down there all the time though...I am too lazy 97Sep09 8:02 am webpage owner from Ghek the Kaldane ...you can be "Lady Not-Appearing Daily" oto ew nter ngoto elp Infobahn/OtherBBS's] read ump ext

ause top 97Sep09 10:13 am webpage owner from Ghek the Kaldane *ta-da* http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/ghek_the_kaldane its up....I may make it an extension of Bantoom.....upload the public rooms in a "page".......for those like Scrud who have moved far away.... oto ew nter ngoto elp The Tangerine Tree> read ump ext

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ause top 97Sep01 3:54 pm 007 was elsewhere from Ghek the Kaldane I was working at the fair again....but its *over now*......I will be there Wed at 1930 (7:30pm).......the guns seem to be in better shape these days....matence has been stepped up......good job hunter.....of course the fact that Petrock or I have to hit you 2 or 3 times to take you down, might influence a game between us.........as near as I can tell, I am *quicker* than anybody else out there, but I still can't get 3 shots off in the time it take someone else to get 1.....2 mebbie...... 97Sep04 4:38 am Golden Jubilee from Petrouchka I will probably be there tonight (Thursday) at 7:30 or 8 pm 97Sep05 7:29 am Bang!! You're dead! from Hunter I will not be able to show for a while due to monitary constraints. Reaver- what time were you there, I stayed till close. Also Pet-Rock, When only four people play, and I still pull down over 13,000, that's pretty good. Got confirma-tion for that by the emps. there. 97Sep05 6:47 pm Golden Jubilee from Petrouchka Oh piss off. I didn't say it wasn't good, I said it was nothing SPECTACULAR. Secondly, having it be a supercharge game makes a HUGE difference. If it had been a normal game, your score would've been 9,000-10,000. THIRDLY, being a LT veteran at level one gives you a HUGE advantage at Lazer Force... Well, I went and played today for the first time since July 31st. The first game was miserable (too few people) the second was better... Game 1: Individual, 7 players. Level 6 players - Cordash, Thanatos, Petrouchka, Fozzie Level 3 player - Viper Level 1 players - Laser, Tomcat (pack names) Petrouchka: Shots fired - 589 Shots hit - 61 Hit perc. - 10% Times hit - 34 Score: 6,543 Rank: 5th out of 7. Game 2: Team 3, 13 players. Level 6 players - same as previous game Level 3 player - same as previous game Level 1 players - 8 total (3 of which made up the rest of my team) Petrouchka: Shots fired - 735 (Red team shots fired: 765) I almost outshot an entire TEAM! (of 4) Shots hit - 146 Hit perc. - 19% Times hit - 23 Score: 12,464 Rank: 1st out of 4 on Yellow Team 2nd out of 13 overall As you may have guessed, hit percentage means nothing to me... it really means nothing in the grand scheme of things, either. the guy who beat me the second game posted amazing numbers. Game 2, top three players overall: Rank: Player: Fired: Hit: %: Score: ------------------------------------------------------- 1. Thanatos 453 182 40% 15,034 2. Petrouchka 735 146 19% 12,464 3. Viper 270 78 28% 9,634 Thanatos is an employee with over 150 games under his belt. After a five week layoff, I feel pretty good. I can still rumble with the best of em. 97Sep05 6:49 pm Golden Jubilee from Petrouchka Member #210 Name: Petrouchka Level: 6 - Lasermaster Total Missions: 36 Average Score: 10,805 Highest Score: 20,143 Overall rank: 31st out of 586 members 97Sep06 7:30 am Pass Interference from Tomcat Leader Tomcat? I just can't be the only one, can I? ;> 97Sep06 8:43 pm from Reaver I was there from 7:00 till bout 9:00 only played 1 game ran into a few friends (ryebread and Lord Arcadian) Sorry I wasnt there last week but it was the GF's Birthday. 97Sep09 9:47 am webpage owner from Ghek the Kaldane I was even better last week than the week before......heh....played 3 games, won three games....4 level 1 hotshots tried to take me down (3 were real gung ho!)...didn't happen.... Game 1:(8:04pm) Individual Ranking: 1st out of 6 Score: 9585 #fired: 580 Hit: 127 21% Ouch: 34 (Dragon = 2) my lowest hit ratio was 2 to 1, avg 3 to 1. Warlock (score:8545), Weapon X (8224),Shadow Death got me the most, 12 times. Game 2: (8:49pm) Indivudual Supercharge Ranking: 1st out of 6 Score: 16,515 #fired 709 Hit: 211 29% Ouch: 81 (Dragon = 1) Shield (score:15995) gave me the biggest battle, very close! Hits: 54 - 30 Firebird 12184 16% LV1 35 - 10 Weapon X 12033 13% LV1 48 - 23 Shadow Death 9444 16% LV2 55 - 17 (first game at level 2!) Zon Kaarna 0 90% LV6 4 - 0 [Generic House Shill...I was supposed to use him for missile practice but was kinda busy and not clear on that.] Game 3: (9:35pm) Individual Ranking: 1st out of 7 Score: 14215 #fired 788 Hit: 178 22% Ouch: 27 (Dragon = 0) ...I used Rapid Fire and Reset a lot! Weapon X 9723 15% LV1 SF:498 SH:77 48 - 21 (grad to LV2!) Slider 8765 12% 1 539 68 18 - 1 (gung ho!) Shadow Death 8643 16% 2 475 76 43 - 5 Saber 3711 13% 1 231 32 12 - 0 (Sliders wife) Meteor 3642 12% 1 209 26 14 - 0 (Sliders kid1) Warlock 2020 5% 1 389 21 28 - 0 (Sliders kid2) Ok...not much of a challenge...and I was wearing Sunburst... Games were played on Wed Sept 3.... As you can see, I need more of a challenge.....say Wed @ 7:30pm? 97Sep10 7:24 am Golden Jubilee from Petrouchka We Will be at Lazer Force TODAY (Wednesday) at 2:30pm or 3:00pm for any who wish to show... oto ew nter ngoto elp TW2002] read ump ext

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ause top 97Sep01 3:32 pm 007 was elsewhere from Ghek the Kaldane I have a really nice gif of Prince Charles and Lady Diana here from happier days...."LadyDi.gif" .... 97Sep09 10:06 am webpage owner from Ghek the Kaldane Anyone want the Sweedish Bikini team from the cover of P------ ? 97Sep09 12:22 pm Pass Interference from Tomcat Leader Me! Me! Over here! 97Sep10 8:08 am Golden Jubilee from Petrouchka ehaohe oto ew nter ngoto elp PEPSI and the rest> read ump ext

ause top 97Sep09 10:07 am webpage owner from Ghek the Kaldane PriceLess drug stores.....Pepsi 79 cents a 2 liter...limit 10... oto ew nter ngoto elp poems] read ump ext

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ause top 97Sep01 3:45 pm 007 was elsewhere from Ghek the Kaldane .....bleed the brakes 97Sep02 7:25 pm Jesus saves.. from lady hawk go to DMV 97Sep03 12:18 am Newsflash! from.... from Nightwind ..go take the written test for permit 97Sep03 6:43 pm wheredidthetimego from The Eternal Yam call in my kitty's Rx...then go pick it up 97Sep04 7:45 am Pass Interference from Tomcat Leader Go through 200 cassette tapes. 97Sep06 2:56 am High Rollin from Ghek the Kaldane update my high school data base... 97Sep06 7:24 am Pass Interference from Tomcat Leader Find out when the season pemier of DS9 will be on. 97Sep09 8:03 am webpage owner from Ghek the Kaldane ...drat, forgot to tape buffy last night...was it a rerun? 97Sep09 12:17 pm Pass Interference from Tomcat Leader Yep. It was. 97Sep09 2:44 pm Newsflash! from.... from Nightwind Season Finale. New episodes next week. Btw Ghek, Tarzan is back ....sort of. they are putting on the one that ran in 1992, along with episodes that were made for the overseas market after it was cancelled stateside. Seems they are shooting themselves in the foot with that one. After they finish showing, how will they call for new episodes when the cast has gone on to other things. I think they are attempting to eradicate any hope of a long term show. oto ew nter ngoto elp pets) read ump ext

ause top 97Sep01 3:46 pm 007 was elsewhere from Ghek the Kaldane @ Bantoom _ Sac-CA ...my cat got vistied by two people while I was on vacation...Rodman and Kitty Cosmos... oto ew nter ngoto elp Panthan for Hire] read ump ext

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ause top 97Sep01 00:00 from Nexus @ ECBBS Ok, I'm using an external modem hooked up to one serial port, and I'm using a serial mouse hooked to the other port. What would be my best options for adding another device that needs an external serial port? I really don't want to go to an internal modem, I like being able to see the lights so I know when something is just being slow or plain not working. I guess I could maybe go PS/2 mouse, but that would probably run more money wise than adding another external port. How big of a hassle is it to add more external ports? Is it as easy as slapping another I/O card into the system? Hmmm, and now I'm thinking about conflicts. I definately couldn't use Com3 cuz I would be using the device while using my modem. If I hook the device to Com4, would it work normally as long as I'm not moving my mouse at the same time? And is this where a PS/2 mouse would really pay off, cuz the mouse and the device wouldn't conflict? How do you add a PS/2 port? umm, was that enough questions? :) 97Sep01 01:58 from Jetrock @ ECBBS Um, a PS/2 port is either built into your motherboard or you just plain can't have one, Nexus. Due to the limitations of PC's, you're asking for trouble using more than two serial ports. Bus mice are a possibility, as long as you have a IRQ line below 8 you can give up. 97Sep02 02:44 from Nexus @ ECBBS Lucky I know Clockwork Orange, or I'd be afraid...:) 97Sep03 00:23 from Freddy @ ECBBS Sdram...you need SGRAM... 97Sep03 00:24 from Freddy @ ECBBS Funny, I've always sold my computer for more then I payed for it originally a year or two later and then put together a system cheaper then I sold the old one for. Basically I make a profit everytime. I bought my first PC for $100 at Sears (when I worked there) because it was a floor model and there is a whole downscaling that goes on and then they get destroyed. I upgraded it for about $500 more, so I spent $600 on that system. I sold it for $1200 (it was originally worth $1500 + the $500 upgrade = $2000 - one year depreciation = $1200). Then I bought a $2500 for $1200 and upgraded it with another $200 making it worth even more)...now I could still sell it for $2000. Crazy. 97Sep04 02:43 from Nexus @ ECBBS Well, I'm using the new system now, though there's a few device problems with Win95 (big surprise) so I need to iron those out. I guess the Win95 doesn't recognize the bus master cuz it came out after 95 did (which makes me wonder why my OSR2 didn't recognize it), but I've got some fix for it, so that should do the trick hopefully. At the moment I'm running on "dos compatibility mode drivers", which at least work, but I don't want to stick with it. And then there's some conflict going on with the PS/2 mouse and my SCSI card. Now, the card was using IRQ12, but I read the ASUS manual, so I knew about the mouse wanting IRQ12, so I changed the card jumpers to IRQ10. Well, first time I fired the system up, it worked up until some point in the Win95 load it freezed up. Checked the bootlog and saw it was at the point it was loading the sparrow driver (which I was guess it was my SCSI before I looked anyway), so basicly, I'm using the mouse right now with the SCSI card out of the system. I went into the system properties and told it to change to IRQ10 and double checked the jumpers, but it still won't co-exist. So I'll turn to ASUS support at this point. Also, I've been looking at maybe overclocking my MB..heh heh. It can do 75Mhz no prob, the jumper settings are even on the board. And then there's 83Mhz...:) 97Sep05 00:43 from Nexus @ ECBBS Eh, maybe I'll squirt it with my eyeglass cleaner. :) 97Sep06 08:25 from Nexus @ ECBBS I never thought much of it until lately, but actually I keep reading that AMDs are great for overclocking and my ASUS is easily configured to do it. Plus that page on Tom's site gives plenty of references to people using the same hardware, so I can see what they've done, and it seems to work. Like I said, the biggest problem seems to be if the cards I've added will handle the increased bus speed ok. I don't think I'll try 83Mhz, but I'll probably try 75Mhz, which will have my K6-200 running at 225Mhz (not the 255 I typed the other day). I just have to go get some of that thermal goo to put on my CPU to help it out. 97Sep06 11:39 from Jetrock @ ECBBS Endlos: That may be true of their 486's, but is it true of their Pentium-class chips? My system is rated at 166 but runs at 133... 97Sep06 18:32 from Atomic Skull @ ECBBS I'm running my Pentium 150 at 166Mhz on an 83 Mhz buss.. I'm using an ASUS motherboard. 97Sep07 00:49 from Nexus @ ECBBS Grabbed some heat sink goo at Mar Vac, they had little individual things for 59 cents at the cash register, so that worked out good. Had a real up and down day. Good news was that I fixed my IDE problem, so they're back to using real-mode drivers, thank god. Bad news was that I picked up the Monster 3D. Heh. Cuz it didn't want to seat itself in any PCI slot I tried, so I got ticket off and started bending the metal braket part, thinking it was the problem. Finally got the SOB seated. Then had problems with the driver setup since I hadn't fixed the IDE problem at that point. Then got it all working and then it crashed. :) Basicly, I don't have the card in my system right now, but now that I have the drive problem fixed, I can move on to the new problem of video on Sunday. It never ends...:P 97Sep08 12:57 am Newsflash! from.... from Nightwind @ Bantoom _ Sac-CA Jetrock: You do know that the AMDs only difference between the 133 and 166 is te testing? Both come from the same chip die. The 166 just performed better in the factory benchmarks and they label them as such. It's just a matter of where they draw the line. If you buy a high end 133 it may be nearly as fast as a low end 166. I'm wondering, how does the motherboard know which is which then? 97Sep08 01:29 from Nexus @ ECBBS Heh, it's where I keep coffee mugs (non-filled), mic flags, and any other crap I need to move out of the way. :) This MB has on-board thermal sensors, so assuming they're reading right, I'll have to keep an eye on it, cuz it seems like my CPU is running a little warm already. Well, got the friggen video cards working right, it appears, so I think I'm done messing with the hardware, at least until I try the overclocking. 3Dfx Carmagedden looks really nice. :) 97Sep09 07:41 from Jim Earl @ ECBBS I think if I was going to upgrade my MB, I'd get one of those dual-pentium boards (and NOT the "Pentium Pro" ones). Their speed on the benchmarks just smokes anything out there. How do they work, anyway? Do they use one CPU for processing and the other for I/O? 97Sep09 11:36 from Jetrock @ ECBBS No, they work by multiprocessing--they split up the workload between processors. They do depend on having an OS that will be able to multiprocess, though: I think Win95 can, but I'm not sure... I know Linux and Win NT can. 97Sep09 16:17 from Endlos @ ECBBS All a Pentium II is a Pentium Pro MMX CPU with its cache ram built in and modified to fit in a different socket. If you're going to be stuck using some 16-bit apps, you're better off sticking with a regular Pentium. 97Sep09 19:11 from Damage Inc. @ ECBBS I wrote "EDO" for reasons I'm not even sure of. I know the difference between SDRAM and EDO. I operate mostly in NT, so I'm more partial to a Pentium II. 97Sep09 19:13 from Damage Inc. @ ECBBS Win95 does not support SMP. If you get a dual-processor system, it's entirely wasted on 95. When you upgrade an NT box from single to multiple CPU's, you need to switch kernels and in some cases, install a special HAL. 97Sep09 20:58 from Jetrock @ ECBBS would you like to play a nice game of chess, Dave? me, I've got the CPU I'll probably keep until mid-1999 or so: I think this (upgrade every two years' pattern is working okay, and the K5 is enough for my needs... but then, I've got other things I want to add before I upgrade the CPU, like a tape-backup drive, a ZIP drive, a faster modem, and (eventually) Win95. 97Sep10 11:02 from Curly Surmudgeon @ ECBBS Microprocessor comparisons. 09SEP97alm An ancient ancestor, the _8051_ spawned about the same time as the 8088. Both are descendants of the Intel 4004 and 8008. All instructions are eight bit operations. 12 clocks/instruction cycle 11.0952Mhz standard clock, 24.0000Mhz maximum clock on some models Minimum # instruction cycles = 1 (example: AND, OR, XOR, ORL, ANL, SUBB, INC) Maximum # instruction cycles = 4 (example: MUL, DIV) Maximum memory access rate @ 11.0592Mhz = 1,085ns/0.921Mhz Memory speed required = 250ns As can be seen, the clock is 11.0592Mhz but the memory access is only 0.901Mhz. However this still requires a memory speed of 250ns. The 8088/8086, used in the original IBM XT and AT. 4 clocks/instruction cycle 8.0Mhz standard clock Minimum # instruction cycles = 9 to 16 (example: AND, OR, XOR) Maximum # instruction cycles = 70 to (139+EA) (example: MUL, DIV) Maximum memory access rate @ 8.0Mhz = 4500ns/0.2222Mhz Memory speed required = 175ns Minimum memory access rate @ 8.0Mhz = 72,500ns/0.013793Mhz I don't have data sheets on the '286 or '386 parts but they will be in the same range, corrected for clock speed, as the 8088/8086 above. With the advent of the '486 with internal FPU the minimum memory access rate improves dramatically. These two parts are examples of the difference between memory speed and access rate. You _cannot_ directly equate the two. A 8Mhz processor hits memory at only 1/16th to 1/160th of the clock speed. But requires the memory to be available in about two clock cycles. RISC, MISC and a few other highly-optimized micros can exceed one instruction per clock. These are usually called "Super- scalar" or some such grandiose term. I won't get into the multi-pipeline architecture which this requires nor the look- ahead units which learn and anticipate the next instruction for these aren't widely available yet although portions are included in some of the NextGen. It is essentially impossible to obtain meaningful benchmarks, you have to run _your_ s/w on each micro you are interested in. But each have an instruction cycle longer than the access time of the memory. So, back to the 10ns memory arguement, a 10ns memory will most likely require 16 to 18ns to acquire data from the 10ns memory. Even if a superscalar micro with a full pipeline is used this is only a memory access rate of 58Mhz and that cannot be approached by any Intel product or replacement at the moment. In addition you have DMA channels running in the background as well as i/o instructions which eat time slices. To run optimally with that 10ns memory I'd estimate that you _might_ begin to maximally utilize it with a 500Mhz Alpha or Sparc processor. Intel compatible micros are 2 to 3 years away from needing such a part. 97Sep10 18:16 from Damage Inc. @ ECBBS Naturally, I would not hesitate to endorse a Sun product. The UltraSparcs are great machines. No complaints whatsoever. SGI makes a great box, too. HP still makes great servers, although the workstations have really lost their competitive edge to Sun and SGI. Sun is also one of the few companies that will publically and aggressively stand up against Microsoft. That is something everyone should be grateful for because in these times, it's important to have a big company like Sun going to bat to keep Microsoft from running amok and doing the Wrong Thing. oto ew nter ngoto elp Quotable Quotes] read ump ext

ause top 97Sep01 3:47 pm 007 was elsewhere from Ghek the Kaldane "...My car looks like swiss cheeze..." - Die Hard oto ew nter ngoto elp Trading Post) read ump ext

ause top 97Sep01 10:28 from Endlos @ ECBBS Wanted: Math Co-proc for a AMD 386 Dx/40 motherboard. Email: endlos@speedlink.com 97Sep01 13:27 from Freddy @ ECBBS Heh...good luck. Are you serious about a 386, and why? You can get a brand new Pentium for around $150. 97Sep01 16:09 from Mark Holtz @ ECBBS Or even a 486 motherboard with CPU from South Pacific? 97Sep01 17:57 from Jetrock @ ECBBS well, you can find a math-co for $10 or so. it depends on one's priorities, I guess... 97Sep02 04:52 from J.J.Dillon @ ECBBS Why did you even bother to respond, Endlos? I had a 386-40 w/proc and co-proc soldered on and room for a 486DLC/SLC processor on it, but it's part of the EMRL now. 2 weeks too late. But a co-proc shouldn't run you more than 15 bucks, if you can even find one. Very rare. Good luck. 97Sep02 11:59 from Freddy @ ECBBS Endlos, chill baby, I said good luck finding one, it's easier to get a Pentium then a 386 or an 8088 these days, ya know? Like trying to find an original Superman comic #1, instead of buying a new Superman series, or along those lines. 97Sep02 13:59 from Jetrock @ ECBBS actually, I saw 387 math coprocessors for sale at Fry's, but they wanted like $50 for them. 97Sep02 22:28 from Memory Loss @ ECBBS What's a good scsi controller for the pc? Adaptec 2940uw? or the Diamond fireport 4.0??? 97Sep02 20:06 from Jim Lewis @ SBBS I thought that by including the information about the door and walls of the safe would avoid confusion. However I forgot the audience. Now pay attention the outer skin is .3125 the inner skin is .1875 with the 28 1 inch steel locking bolts and transmission inbetween that stands for a door like a bank vault! That doesn't include the antidrill plate within the door itself. I was referering to the .875 or 7/8 ths for the others as a toal overall thickness in the cheap safes. Anyway the give away would be the weight too. 1,725 lbs. as compared to 450 lbs. 97Sep02 20:16 from Jim Lewis @ SBBS FOR SALE airplane....1 million dollars. 97Sep03 6:15 am Pass Interference from Tomcat Leader @ Bantoom _ Sac-CA What airplane are we talking.. Air Force One? 97Sep03 11:21 am Golden Jubilee from Petrouchka 747-400 97Sep03 09:42 from Curly Surmudgeon @ ECBBS I've never heard of problems with Adaptec, in fact I have one. On the other hand there have been many reports of problems with Diamond products. 97Sep03 14:06 from Freddy @ ECBBS Yah, I have the 2940 also. 97Sep03 20:15 from Endlos @ ECBBS Hey Fred, got one today, practically paid nothing for it since I traded. Works beautifully on my Quake Server. Wheee. 97Sep04 20:22 from Jim Earl @ ECBBS Endlos, you know better than that. You could have at least done a censor save. I'm glad you at least didn't net save it. 97Sep05 18:27 from Endlos @ ECBBS I *DID*, Jim, I *DID*. I've mentioned this before, there seems to be a bug preventing messages from being censored when you try to censorsave messages in network rooms. 97Sep05 20:49 from Orca @ ECBBS Ive got a better idea endlos. DONT TYPE CRAP IN THE FIRST PLACE. Geez you with hating others is worse than my obsession with ______ 97Sep05 22:19 from Damage Inc. @ ECBBS Both of you should be prohibited from breeding. 97Sep06 13:04 from Damage Inc. @ ECBBS Good point. 97Sep06 21:19 from Freddy @ ECBBS Heh. Life is a bowl of bull. 97Sep07 20:24 from Orca @ ECBBS I give BS for free. 97Sep08 00:13 from andy koledin @ ECBBS for sale:(if this is still for that purpose) ;-} Mustek cg-8400 HAND scanner w/ card and software.....works! Any offers please? Will even trade for a 486 board.(I need the board for my nephew & niece, so please, no pentium boards are cheaper stuff) 97Sep09 16:13 from Endlos @ ECBBS based on Damage's own personal experiance, of course. It happened to him, so he KNOWS it'll happen to me. 97Sep09 19:00 from Damage Inc. @ ECBBS that's spelled "experience". as if I thought your retorts could get any worse... christ, read a book or something. the best thing you could do is to quit milking your parents. but from the way it looks you'll be a career momma's boy. you'll be using the same tired lines, and living at home when you're 30. i thought you were supposed to be going off to Chicago or Minnesota or something on some Big Job. What happened to that? pure ether. i'd be more impressed if you actually had something to show for all of this talk of yours. you talk a lot, but say and do nothing. *yawn* 97Sep09 21:30 from sinner @ ECBBS HE spells it "experiance". now, so do i. leave my widdle monkey alone. you have slaves at work to screw with. you know, when they aren't looking wipe their hard drive (believe me folks, this IS what he does...he told me). THAT is the kind of manager he is....productive? NOT! hee he. i love my powers.... 97Sep10 08:21 from Glen A. Wilson @ ECBBS This is highly amusing. Sticking with the room topic - WANTED: Two dueling pistols. So Damage and Endlos can settle this. Pah. 97Sep10 09:08 from Curly Surmudgeon @ ECBBS I want a ticket. Be sure to have them sign donor cards too... 97Sep10 13:05 from sinner @ ECBBS ahhh..i'm gonna get a bumper sticker "I survived the great modem wars of 97'" 97Sep10 13:51 from sinner @ ECBBS adds spice to a dull day. 97Sep10 14:46 from Orca @ ECBBS Endlos: TAKE THE JOB! 97Sep10 18:06 from Damage Inc. @ ECBBS Ah, no use in dragging it out anyway. Nature or general stupidity will do him in far before anyone can get around to it. I could murder a ham sandwich, myself. I'd rather not wait for Jim to intervene, out of respect.. but if no other reason than knowing I hate reading this crap when other people are bickering. I'm sorry, but brutally stupid people annoy me. Apologies to the innocent bystanders. 97Sep10 19:19 from sinner @ ECBBS brutally intelligent people bug me to no end. 97Sep10 22:18 from sinner @ ECBBS yeah. 97Sep11 00:39 from sinner @ ECBBS my mom taught me to share. oto ew nter ngoto elp SF STAR TREK etc: read ump ext

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